under the cut
I disagree with your argument on a number of different points so im going to break it down into parts to make my response more clear. It took me literally like 5-6 hours to make this response with sources for my information so even though i know its pretty long please PLEASE try to read the whole thing.
Starting with Brendan’s comment
- She should have used common sense before deciding to walk through a dangerous neighborhood. She could have taken the taxi all the way home.
This is not a matter of common sense. She did not just “decide to walk through a dangerous neighborhood,” she was walking home. Nobody decides to live in shitty neighborhoods just because they feel like it. If she lives in a bad neighborhood it is most likely because she cannot afford to live anywhere else. living there, I think that walking in that neighborhood would be a bit difficult to avoid. You say she “could have taken the taxi all the way home,” but the taxi had already gotten lost before and she stated how she was not very far from home. At this point she was already exasperated and just wanted to get home and the taxi was not looking like it was doing such a great job at that. Since she was close to her house it was not an unreasonable idea to walk the distance that was left. This is not even taking into account the fact that TAXIS ARE EXPENSIVE. If this girl lives in a bad neighborhood it is likely that she is not rich. Which is likely not helped by the fact that women make less money than men for doing the same work. Besides this, whether people want to admit it or not men are also more likely to be HIRED than women are. Not everyone is as privileged as you are. You still live with your parents so money isn’t an issue that you constantly worry about but this is not the case for everyone. Even if money want an issue though as I already stated the taxi had already shown itself not to be reliable and she was close to home.
- Maybe if she did “FEAR FOR HER LIFE” while in the taxi, she would have taken the taxi all the way home, but since this girl has no sense of premonition before something bad happens rather than while it’s happening she got harassed
She didn’t fear for her life when she was in the taxi because she had not yet had men threaten to rape her and then follow her home. Of course if she could have magically known that this would have happened then she would have stayed in the taxi but she didn’t. Because as you say she has no “sense of premonition” just like no other human being on the planet has “sense of premonition” because we are all regular people. What you are asking of her is to be a psychic. If Abe Lincoln was a psychic he probably wouldn’t have gone to that theater but he wasn’t and he got shot but people don’t go “well its his fault because he has no sense of premonition!” People cannot be expected to predict every bad thing that is ever going to happen to them and they shouldn’t be blamed for not being able to do so. You are literally asking this girl to be a psychic. If you are implying that she should have automatically assumed something terrible was going to happen to her because she lived in a crowded place I’m going to have to tell you that people should not have to live in constant terror!
- I may not have to worry about my butthole as much as a woman, but i’d still be be worried about my wallet or my life depending on what someone was after.
Here’s the thing Brendan. You can leave your wallet at home. You can put your hood up and look like a thug and you will be significantly less likely to be mugged. A woman can never leave her vagina at home. Even if you are modestly dressed, which this girl WAS, you can still be raped. Besides this women should not be forced to police the way they dress to avoid being raped. By telling women all these ways they should avoid getting raped you are #1 telling them that if they DO get raped it was their fault because of a failure to follow these guidelines and #2 you aren’t discouraging rape, you’re just making sure that its not you but SOMEONE ELSE who gets raped. I’m going to discuss rape and rape culture more in my response to Dave so please read that even though its not directly a response to you. And by the way, no you are not starting to make sense. Thanks for the patronizing attitude on a topic that you have not researched though! 8)
Now Dave.
- She fears for her life because men are walking behind her. Implying she knows they are going to do something. [snip]…could be overreacting. She shouldn’t feel like her life is being threatened just because someone says nasty things to her.
I don’t think you payed attention to the video. These men were not simply walking behind her, they were purposefully following her. And not only that but they decided to do this after jeering at her and telling her how they were going to tear her panties off and rape her. Her response was not overreacting. One in every FOUR college aged women has survived a rape or an attempted rape. ONE IN FOUR. To make this point a bit clearer for you, take Amanda, Annabelle, Your sister, and me. Statistically speaking by the time that we leave college one of us will have been raped or almost raped. And hey look! Annabelle already got molested when she was black out drunk! It looks like we got pretty close already! Some more statistics? In a study by the U.S. Centers for Disease control of 5,000 college students at over 100 colleges, 20% of women answered “yes” to the question “In your lifetime have you been forced to submit to sexual intercourse against your will?” So, one in five college women has been raped at some point in her lifetime. In a typical academic year, 3% of college women report surviving rape or attempted rape. This does not include the summer, when many more rapes occur. Source. Note that this study says women REPORT being raped. But considering that rape is the most under reported violent crime in the US the real number may be much higher! This is not as simple as someone saying something nasty to her. As a straight white middle class cissex male, the chances of you being assaulted are pretty low! But if you were black or gay or transsexual, “someone saying something nasty” to you could be just the beginning of what turns into a hate crime, or in many cases for women, a rape. Please remember that we are NOT all the same and your experiences do not invalidate the experiences of everyone else.
- so the real solutions are – teaching men to not be complete assholes towards women or anyone for that matter. some men are terrible pricks, but not all men. the second solution is for women to stop blaming people in general for all their problems.
I am going to take a moment to acknowledge the fact that you did say something correct before I jump into this one. You are absolutely right! The solution is in fact teaching men not to be complete assholes towards women or anyone else! That is the the point of feminism! To teach men (and women! Women can be sexist against other women as well) not to be indoctrinated into the harmful ways of patriarchal society and promote equal rights! I’m glad to see that you are at least heading in the right direction on this point. I say this in complete sincerity! I’m very happy and proud of you!
HOWEVER. The rest of your argument sadly falls short. I never stated that all men are terrible pricks. The girl in the video never stated that all men are terrible pricks. THIS IS NOT WHAT WE ARE SAYING. A lot of people think that all feminists hate men but this is not true. DESPITE THIS, first of all, just because not ALL MEN are terrible does not mean TOO MANY men are terrible. OR that non terrible men cant do terrible things. Dave, you and Brendan are two of my best friends in the entire world. I love you guys! But that does not mean that you can never do anything that is hurtful. The comments that you made on the video disgusted me and were very upsetting. This doesn’t mean that I think you are terrible pricks. I KNOW that you guys are good people and that your arguments were made out of misinformation and not malice. Just like I know that if you guys will be open minded enough to listen to me, and other people much more informed and more eloquent than I, then your opinions will change and you won’t make the same mistakes in the future. I know that this may sound a bit condescending but that is honestly not what I am going for! because I know that I have said gross sexists, racist, or otherwise terrible things in the past before I became more aware. I don’t think that I am smarter or better than you or that you aren’t good people its just that on THIS PARTICULAR MATTER you aren’t as educated just like I’m not as educated as you guys are on something that YOU are passionate about such as programming or certain types of music or any of the other things that that you guys know a lot more about than I do.
BUT MOVING ON. Like I said before just because not all men are terrible doesn’t mean too many aren’t. I’m going to use a quote about racism but I think it has the same basic effect.
“I’m like ‘the Tea Party is racist’ and my friend is like ‘Kamau, you can’t call the Tea Party racist. They’re not all racist.’ And I was like, you know what, I don’t need the Tea Party to be 100% racist for me to feel perfectly fine calling them racist. I don’t need 100% racism in the group. It could be way less than 100%. 10% is plenty for me. If the Tea Party is 10% racist I feel comfortable labeling the whole group racist.Let me explain how that works. If I offer you a shake, a milkshake. I say ‘would you like a milkshake?’ You go “yeah, sure I’d like a milkshake.” I go, ‘okay, here you go, but just so you know it’s 10% shit.’Oh, now you suddenly you understand how it works. 10% is kinda a lot ain’t it. You go ‘uh oh, that’s too much shit in my shake.”(— W. Kamau Bell on the Tea Party and Race)
The point is that saying that ALL men aren’t terrible is a useless statement.
Now to the the part of your argument that I REALLY have a problem with. “the second solution is for women to stop blaming people in general for all their problems.” This is NOT a case of women blaming people in general for their problems. First of all your comment is Victim blaming. I could write whole essay on victim blaming but I know that this is getting kind of long so I’m just going to say that in Psychology we learned that Victim Blaming is a way for people to separate themselves from horrible things that happen to other people so they can keep their “it can never happen to me!” mentality and that its bad. Don’t blame victims for the shitty things that happen to them it makes you an asshole. Second of all, this is not actually a solution. Say that the girl in the video never said anything, never made the video, in your eyes “not blaming people for her problems”. This would not have actually stopped the harassment from occurring. Actually! Silence about issues like these leads to MORE harassment occurring because people aren’t aware and educated! That mindset of women needing to stop blaming people for their problems is one of the reasons why rape and sexual assault are the most under reported crime in the US! Its also why things like domestic violence and rape in relationships happen, because women are taught not to tell anyone about their problems, and be complacent and be nice to boys and let them down gently and not to make a scene when they are being harassed etc etc etc. Finally in this particular case it was ABSOLUTELY the other persons fault! Four men decided to harass a woman because they were horrible people and yet the blame is placed on the victim. These men decided to cat call this girl(their decision), to say that they were going to rip her panties off(their decision), and then FOLLOW HER(their decision). This is in no way her fault! These men chose to participate in disgusting and unacceptable behavior and they should be held responsible for their actions. It was THEIR fault NOT hers.
- say a woman walks down the street wearing revealing clothes. of course men are going to be aroused, because men are naturally attracted to a womans body.
This is also victim blaming. Women should be allowed to wear WHATEVER THEY WANT without fearing rape. No, not “of course men are going to be aroused, because men are naturally attracted to a woman’s body.” Here’s the thing. Its ok to be attracted to a woman! Its ok to see someone dressed a certain way and think that she’s hot and get turned on. But it is NOT ok to see a woman and decide because you are attracted to her its ok to harass or rape her! RAPE is NEVER the victims fault! Men are not wild beasts, they are human beings with brains and sentient thought! Men are capable of controlling themselves and if they decide not to then that is their OWN FAULT. A lot of people like to use the “dangling a steak in front of a hungry dog” analogy but even dog can be trained not to eat food that isn’t theirs if their masters say no, and men are not dogs. So why is it not a man’s fault if a women tells him no and he rapes’s her anyway? It IS his fault. It is absolutely 100% his fault and not the woman’s. Men are not entitled to sex, they do not have the right to a woman’s body. EVEN IF she was dressed provocatively. Even if she was dressed provocatively and was flirting with him and then later changed her mind. RAPE IS ALWAYS THE RAPISTS FAULT. Furthermore, as you yourself stated, this was not the case in the video. The woman was not dressed provocatively. Rape happens to men too sometimes. Rape happens to children. Rape happened in the 1800s when women were covered down to their ankles. Rape happens to Muslim women who wear burquas. Were they all asking for it? If rape happens regardless of what someone is wearing then clearly how much or how little clothing they wear is NOT THE ISSUE. I don’t care how attractive you find someone it is ALWAYS your own fault if you deiced to harass or assault someone. I have seen some sexy people in my life. I saw this one dude out exercising who was wearing a really tight t-shirt and he was really buff and he was wearing shorts and I thought ‘DAMN HE FINE’ but I DIDN’T HARASS HIM because I am a human capable of controlling myself AND SO ARE MEN. Also rape isn’t even about sexuality its about power.
“Rape isn’t about uncontrollable sexual desire. You only have to listen in on a Call of Duty game to see that. When that kid says “I raped you!”, he’s not calling the other guy sexy. He’s saying he defeated him, dominated him, humiliated him. That’s what rape is about, and that should scare you.”
You can find more on rape myths and how rape is about power here and here
- women have protrayed themselves and have been portrayed as beautiful “beings” for as long as anyone can remember.
Women don’t portray themselves as beautiful “beings”, men do. The fact that they oftentimes portrayed as “beings” is dehumanizing and harmful btw.
“But remember, there are two ways to dehumanize someone: by dismissing them, and by idolizing them.”― David Wong
“The mirror was often used as a symbol of the vanity of woman. The moralizing, however, was mostly hypocritical.
You painted a naked woman because you enjoyed looking at her, you put a mirror in her hand and you called the painting Vanity, thus morally condemning the woman whose nakedness you depicted for your own pleasure.
The real function of the mirror was otherwise. It was to make the woman connive in treating herself as, first and foremost, a sight…”
I could talk about this point more but this really is getting long so if you want to discuss this particular point more tell me and I would be more than happy to look up some articles or videos for you on the objectification of women and the male gaze. You wouldn’t even have to look for stuff yourself I would do it for you because this is so important to me that if you were willing to listen I would make it as easy as possible for you to access this information.
- women should stop blaming men for problems that 80% of them have no control over (control over other men, that is).
The final point. First of all it is PATRIARCHAL SOCIETY and RAPE CULTURE that are to blame for rape. Women can rape too(although 90% of rapes are committed by men). But besides this a good portion of men ARE IN FACT RAPISTS. How many? “a study also surveyed thousands of college men, asking them about if they had ever forced a woman to have sex against her will. About 4.5% reported that they had.” That seems small but “4.5% of the men in the United States is an incredibly high number – that translates into over six million men.” I know that that sounds small but here is an example. “Imagine that one out of 25 men have at some point in their lives attacked and tortured an Oregonian. You don’t know which ones had done it – you just know it’s about one in 25. And they had done it simply because they had wanted to, and they consider people from Oregon to be just that worthless.
Now imagine you were born in Oregon.
How safe would you feel in your daily life? What would it do to your feeling of security and safety, knowing that “only” one out of 25 of the men you stand in line with at the bank, the male cashiers you meet at the grocery, the male cops patrolling the streets, the male students you take classes with and the male professors you learn from, and your male co-workers at the office, has attacked someone like you, because they were like you?”
And that’s just the amount of men who ADMIT to rape so the actually number may be much higher. So the amount of men who are directly responsible for rape is frighteningly high. But moving on to the men who aren’t rapists, you DO have control! That’s the reason why feminism is so important, because it actively tries to combat the parts of society that encourage and excuse rape and allow rapists to go unpunished for their crimes. By educating yourself, speaking out when you see sexism or rape culture in your life, and by informing others YOU can make a difference and make the world a better and safer place for everyone! So yes, you can change things.
I know that this got really long so thank you for reading all of it. If you disagree with anything I said then feel free to correct me but please have sources for your information. There may be something that I genuinely was misinformed about but I need a reliable source to collaborate what you say. If you want to learn more about anything in particular I discussed or anything about feminism but don’t want to do the leg work, like I said before I would be happy to go out and find articles and videos on it or I can try to talk about it myself if you would prefer although I am sure there are better qualified people out there who could explain things better than I could. Like I said before I love you guys and I don’t think you were trying to be hurtful or malicious. And I don’t think you’re bad people I just think you haven’t been informed. Again, thanks for listening.
ugh 